Besides, she has no mobility, no hard CC herself most bruisers do, with the exception of Graves, Mordekaiser and Illaoi , and a low range. The game mode is garbage because of the funneling strategy and now is literally the perfect time to address it. Sure, you can stick to just farming your lane and farming the jungle, letting the enemy duo lane do more or less the same. Eventually, I had to try it because someone in my team would want to go hyper, or support. I think people only play it because it's easy to win with. Would love for it to be back but I just go to HoTS to get any sort of macro gameplay that isn't SR farm 15 minutes before doing literally anything.
Thanks for your feedback.
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Future bets are also available, allowing you to predict the winner of an upcoming tournament days or even weeks before it actually takes place. The difference in time is quite negligible, given that your roles are also predetermined and you don't have to discuss over it as well. People try to dismiss a lot of suggestion just because the lack of population, while these problems are the reason the population is this low. Same here, I only play league now when URF is here. Because the game just sucks now.
Riot ruined the meta too much for SR and TT is unplayable because of this stupid gold funneling meta. Aram gets really boring after a bit so does URF but at least urf is more fast paced. I mean, it's different, but the SR version that's come into play the past couple months is light years closer to it than anything tried on SR before. I'm sure they've got plans for a Dominion-level balance change to Twisted Treeline.
For two major reasons:. As a top laner, you are getting camped much more than Hashinshin could ever be camped in his worst nightmares. The enemy jungler is always nearby, so whenever you try to push an advantage you'd have, suddenly, you end up in a 1v2. As a jungler, you spend so much time You only have three camps in your own jungle, and if you don't have lane priorities, you can't invade either.
Playing a jungler just felt horrible to me. I'm a top lane main, and I was a top lane main in 3v3 when I got back to it when they introduced the flex queue on that mode in pre-season 7. So in 3v3, I was mostly playing top.
I had never played in a duo lane com, be it as the support or as the hypercarry. Eventually, I had to try it because someone in my team would want to go hyper, or support.
And I liked it much, much more than the solo lanes. The weird thing is that lots of people think that the hypercarry meta is non-interactive. That's because most people who play it are only playing it because they know it's the better strat.
But they have no idea how it's supposed to be played. A hypercarry comp is not about farming the lane, farming the jungle, rinse and repeat and nothing else. A hypercarry comp is about pushing your lane, getting lane priority , and invading the enemy jungle as much as you can. Sure, you can stick to just farming your lane and farming the jungle, letting the enemy duo lane do more or less the same.
If you're fine with having the game be more or less of a coinflip decided by:. Sure, it is one way to climb as long as you don't do too many mistakes. But eventually you'll be stuck, because you'll be facing competent opponents who do know what hypercarry comps are about.
Hypercarry comps give a lot more room to action and to interaction than solo lanes comp, when the latter forces the solo lanes into being passive most of the time due to the constant presence of a jungler nearby.
The hypercarry meta is about constantly having a good map awareness from both sides of the map the bot laner can't not posture aggressively when having the lane priority, the bot laner can't not react when the duo lane is going for fights, the duo lane can't go for invades or deep fights when the bot laner is getting pushed in or backing , about denying to create a gold advantage as a hypercarry, your priority is not increasing your gold but increasing your gold differential. As such, you can't just trade farm with your opponents, you must take farm away from them , and about executing all fights properly.
Because you have fights all the time once again, when you know how the hypercarry meta works , and as they're teamfights, you need to apply all of the teamfight mechanics all the time. Whom to focus, how to avoid damage, how much you can deal or take, whom you can reach, what your team is going to do - and that's about the macro-esque aspect, because beyond that, you still have the abilities to land and to dodge, the range at which to keep yourself, the direction in which you should move inbetween your spells and attacks And lastly, there's the draft.
It's also important to know what counters what for example: But the drafting isn't just about getting counter picks. It's about finding your win conditions relative to that of the opponents, and your powerspikes. When you can fight, how, and which areas you must focus on.
The hypercarry meta is much more complicated than what meets the eye, and most people don't know that because they can't force themselves to play to their limits. They play way too conservatively, and because of that they make the game rather boring, and only use their team comp to a fraction of its strength. Hypercarry comps have a vastly different dynamic in high elo, and are way more aggressive and interesting.
Exactly this, i made a climb to master in 3v3 playing solo. Would play Yi Nocturne Shaco or whatever i was decently good at while climbing, would eventually get alot of people in my games telling me to go hyper gold funneling strat.. Then i researched the 3v3 meta more online, and began playing gold funnel pretty much all the time, and its way more fun then normal jungle for the 3v3 map.
As there is only 3 camps, if enemy jungler has cleared their jungle side, and each lane is 50 50 pushed. Only thing you can do most of the time is either try too see if you have an opening to fight the enemy jungler, usually its not a good idea. And often you will get jungle fights, and have early 2v2's 2v3's 3v3's.
Solo Top - Solo jungle and apc bot, will just wait for altar timers, jungle spawn, constant shove lane. It's sad that I got downvoted to oblivion for trying to make the same point. Hopefully somebody reads this. They act and talk like their approaches to game design and balance are so careful and finely crafted. I've played since before S1 started but after beta quit playing entirely around two years ago, sticking around to watch LCS.
And as a person with enough time to still dedicate some amount of my week towards League, I'm wondering why I give league anything at all. Seeing the way Riot talks about handling changes vs. At this point, the only conclusion I can come to is that Riot really have no idea how their game works at a deep level, and where they want the game to go.
To relate this to TT. They won't change this because they simply don't know how to change it. I also think people expect bigger changes when they read direction and then they see a small change in the patch notes.
Theory and Application don't need to be so vastly different, it's a problem with how Riot's compartmentalized their teams that creates this huge rift. Nobody knows who's in charge anymore. We've literally caught Meddler and GhostCrawler both placing blame on each other when they're both lead designers, like?? Which one is right? Why is there a parallel level of seniority here where they both can just throw out changes willy nilly without confirming with each other what's best for the game?
I think that just goes to show to what audience they cater to. Dev Blogs seem to aim to the more hardcore part of the playerbase while patch notes are for everybody. The problem is the sheer difference between the Blog and the patch notes, audience really has nothing to do with it.
Part of the point of the blog is to try and show the thought processes and design and balance principles that are used by the balance team.
Then the patch notes come out and the very examples given in the Blog aren't applied to the patch that's released. The moment i saw, that it would not get applied to TT, I was so damn angry.
It makes no damn sense to change SS every few weeks but not do a single change to TT, that would finally change this god aweful meta with zero effort but instead put effort into not changing it for TT only Jungle Items does not exist on Aram, so TT only. If Riot hesitates so hard with TT, why dont they just remove it? I used to love this mode, but every game is the same and I am force to play the same champs every time.
And if I forgot to ban the few most annoying champs I look at you Taric , I will regret that I have queued for this mode. Riot simply does not know, how TT works or what its identity is, so they wont change it. My money is on that they will do that.
They're pulling the Dominion special on TT to eventually justify axing it. I'm willing to bet not a single member of the balance team plays Tt. Any change they make would be illinformed. They don't want to invest time in learning it when it's not that popular. I think it's really easy for the Twisted Treeline meta in particular. Sure this'll kill a lot of supports being played in TT but I think it's better than the current state.
I think people only play it because it's easy to win with. I don't think anyone actually likes playing Twisted Treeline funnel. It is really, really fun with a 3 man party for a handful of games to be honest.
Certainly if you try wacky combo's with it. However other then that I fucking hate it. I hate playing with it and I hate playing against it. I stopped playing 3v3 because I bumped into it so often. But again, it's not necessary the strategy that was fun, just the complexity of the games. I wouldn't miss it for sure, and removal of support items is a pretty great idea! YES im so glad im not the only one who feels this way. I stopped playing ranked 3's when I hit mid plat and had to suffer through support meta.
Ranking up from silver 4 to plat was fun though. Even in low elo I found the quality of games to be pretty bad. When I was in gold, I get matched with challengers at least once or twice every 10 games. Also about half of the time I get 3 solo queue players playing against duos or trios running a special strat. The rageblade definitely killed the hyper comp a little bit tho. It used to be that the game would be over as soon as Kayle gets 2 items, and she usually gets it at 10 minutes.
People complain about funnel on SR, but it was hilariously bad on TT. Only one meta champion uses Rageblade in 3v3, and it's Kai'Sa. Kayle is definitely not a common pick anymore, neither is Kog, and Kayle was a pick-or-ban champion in season but is not even a threat in season , because of the way the meta was changed in the role of the supports, and because of Ardent ceasing to be a mandatory item for every team.
Like, Kayle used to be an unwinnable match-up for Morde, now she's an easy match-up for him. All bruisers can destroy her in the early to mid game, and she'll just be too far down to be able to do anything until her Nexus explodes.
That wasn't the case in season 7 as Ardent gave her a huge damage boost and made her tankier, before she'd reach the items she should be needing Bloodrazor, Nashor's Tooth, Guinsoo. So the window you had for getting ahead wasn't long enough. No, they never existed in season 8 in 3v3, regardless of the state of crit.
Twitch was a bit of a thing in season 7, and that was only because of Ardent. And very rarely Kog. First of all, no, Kayle and the enemy don't have the same kind of support.
Second, Kayle is squishy. Within two seconds of CC, she loses a much greater percentage of her health than a Darius, for example.
That's why she's much more vulnerable to it. Besides, she has no mobility, no hard CC herself most bruisers do, with the exception of Graves, Mordekaiser and Illaoi , and a low range. After that you've won assuming similar skill. But in , I'm against Kayle I think? And that's in challenger. It's not easy to avoid fights when your opponents will invade for your golems and have Leona or Poppy. By "in challenger", I meant "in challenger matches", not something unbalanced.
There's a lot of hard CC on at least the support and often at least one of the other teammates too in a team on 3v3 - Kayle doesn't live for long when she's under constant pressure to ult early or get stunned and die. As always in 3v3, wether Kayle is gonna be a great pick in a specific game is up to the teamcomps across both teams, and then player skill.
I never ever got matched with a challenger. Or a master player. The highest rank I think I got matched with was d3. This was last season though. Just started playing 3's this season, once I hit Plat 3 I started seeing master tier players about every 3rd game. The game mode is garbage because of the funneling strategy and now is literally the perfect time to address it. I played it a while with 2 friends because, well, if you can't beat them join them.
It honestly is boring as fuck and that topside of the map is still horrendous to me even after all these years. Riot doesn't listen to its actual playerbase you thing they are going to listen to the cave people that play twisted treeline? Don't get me wrong, when they change it it isn't bad quality, but it's just so damn rare to ever see anything directed outside of Summoner's Rift that it has to be frustrating to support these other maps yet you don't see Riot supporting it.
The most common excuse is that it would split the playerbase, but come on, how many players does league have? At this point ot feels that Riot is treating TT the same as Dominion, giving the middle finger to their player bases.
The people here that are complaining about funnel meta in Twistes Treeline have absolutely no idea what they're talking about. Support meta in 3v3 creates more interaction than jungle meta can ever hope to achieve. Fighting for jungle camps is essential because you want to deny gold from the enemy. In high elo, people will often skip taking towers just to get enemy camps because taking their tower wont deny them gold, it will give them more time to rotate to clear waves in fact.
Taking enemy camps gives you the gold for taking them AND denies gold for the enemy team to farm. Taking the tower will net you less gold, so until you're ready to pressure vilemaw and are ready to break the enemy turtle, teams often skip towers until theyre the very last objective possible.
Jungle meta is painfully boring and frustrating to play on twisted treeline because the only champions that become viable are junglers who can gank through walls kayn, zac, reksai who can literally show up in your lane from out of vision on cooldown since they have nothing better to do. It's insanely frustrating as a solo laner because you have to play literally under tower the entire game and can't pick a champion that can't farm from that far under tower or you get ganked nonstop and just feed your ass off.
Gaining any kind of lane pressure or advantage means absolutely nothing because you will just be punished to all hell with repeat ganks because what the fuck else is the jungler gonna do? It creates a PvE environment where people just afk farm waves until one of the jungler decides its time to fight and blindly walks into the enemy jungle and then spam pings for back up when he dies. Support meta allows for bot lane to be a legitimate skill based matchup where each player can exert pressure to follow up on invades without the fear of being excessively ganked by a jungler.
You're allowed to play aggressive and look for solo kills and can demonstrate your skill in laning phase. The top lane 2v2 also shows excessive amount of macro skill in how they control waves to deny cs from their opponents, choose engages, and create opportunities to invade.
You also create interactions in lane to try to gain pressure so that you can invade as well. Supports dont take flash, so one good engage on the support and you either kill them or get to invade for free and take altar when they spawn.
Jungle meta revolves completely around the jungler and hes really the only one that gets to play the game and he has almost zero options after clearing camps. He either backs or dicks around in one of the lanes because if he enters mid, he has to facecheck the enemy jungler in the bush and instantly gets rotated on by bot lane and killed. One hundred percent of the time. Amd people are only frustrated with it because they refuse to learn it properly and would rather jump on the bandwagon and complain about what they dont understand.
They are struggling to remove it from the rift. No wonders they don't invest any resources into removing it from 3v3. No, "twisted treeline mains" dont. Even the majority of 3v3 players have only ever come in contact with hypercarry when playing against smurfs or a premade, if at all.
People on reddit complaining about it have never seen a high elo 3v3 game in their life but jump on the bandwagon. The better jungle pick wins the game. Sololanes in jungle meta have far less control over the outcome of the game than the support or botlaner in hypercarry meta. Unless one team is much more skilled in general, the team with the better jungle pick has such a huge advantage because that alone allows both solo laners to play much more agressively than their counterparts resulting in cs leads and it allows invading much more easily since both sololanes are ahead and have roam priority.
I've played over 3v3 ranked games last season alone, all the way up to masters. I prefer hypercarry meta over jungle meta every single time. I agree with this statement. As an bot APC player jungle meta is a nightmare for me. Not only I cannot do much without coordinating it with my jungle, he even out scales me through out the game because if he is winning he can farm both jungle sides.
In support meta I am at least allowed to 1v1 my opponent in bot and impact my top lane is I am winning my lane. Ok, I really hate people talking about the support meta without taking the time to fully understand it. In TT, it requires both a high degree of coordination and insanely strong understanding of your champions individual powerspikes in order to utilize it to it's full efficacy.
Yes, it does very unfair and uninteractive if you are playing jungle meta into it. But this comes with an understanding on both sides of how simple and binary their gameplan is; they will farm the lane, then they will grab camps, rinse and repeat until they're so huge they can't lose. Early on they will not be invading hard or they lose too much from the lane , they will not be ganking, they will rarely be wasting time on seiging for objective chip damage.
Support meta has always sacrificed early game pressure and gameplan flexibility for a different kind of pressure; a mental pressure that every second you aren't doing something about it, they are pulling further ahead. It puts the ball in your court to be proactive and shut it down. It invalidates the mass majority of the cast. Either stomp early, or get outscaled like crazy for wanting to farm to an item and a half. You know this what they are doing from the moment you see it in champ select.
But they drafted with this in mind. You can draft a team with he understanding that if our team can absorb a certain amount of pressure without losing, we auto win later.
Support meta is really just a smaller scale implementation of the same thing. Did you think protect the kog comps were fundamentally unfair? But there have always been meta shifts that change the pace of the game. Because sadly they don't care about anything that isn't SR and ARAM to some extent, while we've been dealing with funneling here for ages.
But honestly, don't know if I'd rather with it or face a change that might end up being worse. Well in the classic Starcraft match up of zerg vrs Protoss, Zerg was heavily favoured however after years without a patch of any kind a player named Bisu develo There's nothing else to be said, my man. Meh, TT has always been a joke of a map, d5 players filling challenger slots with very poor game knowledge and ability to play.
Played it for like 4 weeks at end of s5 and s6 and easily got challenger in like 60 games, truth is the map is not very competitive and filled with very mediocre players. You can't really draw that many conclusions from the map and stats because it is filled with so many poor players and most of the good players don't even see it as a proper map. TT has mostly been just a map for players to inflate their elo and think they're better than they are, it's one of its biggest popularity reasons.
I mean with how long Ardent Censer lasted do you really think they're going to be quick to change this? Did they say that they won't change it because "it's been there for so long? Or atleast say if it was a comment on a thread or a Nexus post or something. Either way though, there's almost no chance they would change it anyways. Doesn't matter if it's unhealthy, it would just be a waste of their time. Hardly anyone plays 3's, and the meta isn't even close to balanced around it.
The only reason Riot would ever have to update it is if there would be separate eSports teams for it. Which is highly highly highly unlikely. IMO they should just delete it.
It doesn't make sense for them to delete Dominion and keep 3's. Especially because 3's has a ranked ladder, and that ladder is literally constantly just being exploited. Riot in the past has tried to 'keep both metas somewhat viable because there's players who enjoy either', however currently the supp meta is quite a lot more popular due to strength, not favorism.
It could use a nerf, and perhaps Riot is right to not just implement the 'funneling band-aid fix' from SR to not completely tip over the balance in favor of jungle meta - however I would definitely enjoy them doing something , for other players ' sake I see obviously frustrated in my 3v3 games!
I don't have much knowledge on the state of the game regarding twisted treeline, however I feel don't down vote because the name that hashinshin's argument that "how can people who don't play the game balance it" is starting to be more noticeable. Gold funneling feels healthy for competitive as it provides much needed imo diversity in strategy. Meanwhile it should be way harder to pull off in solo q which for most part it is. What he is proposing is a bit of balance changes that would only affect 3v3, so no balancing the game around it, just the gamemode.
The change I have been suggesting for years for tt and also in this thread Just take out the fucking support items. Supports aren't viable if they have literally no income stream. I don't know a single person who likes the funnel meta.
And at my elo, lots of people do, because once people know how to play the hypercarry meta, they know it's not just "let's clear the wave then take the jungle then clear the wave, rinse and repeat", and make the game much more aggressive and interactive. So, gold-starve ALL supports again? Including that role you sometimes get auto-filled into? You know, the one that goes bot and usually places tons of wards?
Are you sure you want to go back to that? They are just ignoring TT because if they do then they can more easily justify shutting off the servers to that mode. The longer they don't address the game mode the more the playerbase will shrink.
It's just a waiting game for them where they literally save money by not paying people to work on TT and will save money when they can finally shut it down. Yea what Meddler said goes to show how out-of-touch they are with some parts of the community. Who says they don't nerf it because "It's been there for so long"? Which rioter said that? It has, and that means changing it's a pretty substantial upheaval, given it's so core to how TT's been played for quite a while. At least in the short term we'll be keeping these changes that nerf gold funneling on SR only.
Shyvana's passive works on Vilemaw, both for the bonus damage and for the bonus stats. He loses one in 3v3. As for morde, yeah that's worse, so I stand corrected on that but not really in a good way. There definitely is an audience for that. Shame they did fuck-all to support it. It was fine just the way it was. The problem wasn't entirely balance, it was lack of support balance included.
Funnel strat in a nutshell. Example Funnel strat can only really be shut down by consistently disrupting their farming and by stealing jungle camps. Jung - lane - jung - lane repeat till u win. Just raw damage with his passive? And i don't find this surprising based on Riot info on RGM popularity.
It just didn't work out, tough luck.